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anyone got a non-paywalled version of this article with quite the fear-mongering title?

https://archive.ph/LTkXA

Opinion Guest Essay

This Is Really Bad


I was just thinking the same thing lol. 2A is such a divisive topic.


> due to LLM sloppers pushing large amounts of trash code

hey bud your bias is showing


Nice this is going to be a fun project to watch for 2 weeks before everyone forgets about it!


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Wild to me that this is on the Snowflake blog. I understand why, but...what a sign of the times.


Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources.

This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man.

On the brain drain problem in particular, one way to ensure talent sticks around is to create a good environment for people to do their best work. In much of Europe, getting bureaucracy out of the way and encouraging real investment would go a long way. People leave because they can make more money and they want to be surrounded by the best people. People would trade some of that off to stick around their home countries, however if you go to California and talk to folks from e.g. NL or DE working on this stuff, they have a lot to say about innovation and working culture back home.


This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes.

The EU was build on the principles of collaboration, to overcome the nationalistic impulses. Free trade and free movement of people, no need for everyone to replicate what everyone else is doing. Preventing individual nation states from favoring and supporting their home grown firms over other EU firms is a central legal principle.

But this only works if it is reciprocal. And ideally if the partners are roughly on the same level. When you force developing nations in trade deals to not protect local firms, you are also preventing them from moving up the value chain and locking them into the position of "raw material providers".

When trading with China we know that China has absolutely no qualms supporting its strategic industries with a truck load of subsidies. And it is preventing foreign firms from investing and selling on the domestic market.

For the longest time the US was considered a safe partner though. Sure, plenty of disagreements in the details, but in principle someone whom you can rely on. That idea has been decisevly dismantled over the last 10ish years. The US unilaterally cut of the EMails of EU courts. The US has unilaterally decided that EU partners cannot use Fable/Mythos.

The only reasonable reaction is to make sure that the EU can maintain and create its own critical infrastructure.


>This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes.

And in response NL should weaponize ASML for example. Then both sides would naturally back down. Specialization is the most efficient way of developing tech civilization.

Whereis everybody building their own mediocre versions would be repeating Russia in its attempt to make its own national messenger - a lot of government money sunk, yet people are still using Telegram/etc.


Of NL weaponizes ASML they will just take their IP and leave NL and then they have nothing. They have already pushed a lot of things out of NL and should invest in leveraging the position without weaponizing it.


If ASML is just IP then everyone would have already copied it. They have an extremely deep and high tech supply chain that is nearly impossible to copy.


ASML wiki for those like me who were confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML

(despite the name, i am not dutch)


I am quite interested to hear how you would pronounce your name, dike-ster-house (assuming you live in the US)?


> dike-ster-house

yep, basically. 3rd one down https://www.howtopronounce.com/dijksterhuis

the story behind it: i was looking for a name to write music under. and i was reading academic papers about subliminal messaging in music and stuff. i came across a paper where they seemed to be absolutely ripping into this "dijksterhuis" guy's previous paper. felt bad for him. felt like he was an underdog. so i ran with that name.


> (despite the name, i am not dutch)

Some close or far ancestor was though. :'-)


Let's not overstate the case. The EU was built to keep France and Germany from getting into another war, and it has been successful at that. All the other "principles" are just window dressing.


Isn't it up to Europeans to define the purpose of the EU? What's your claim to having the right to define it?


I'm not defining anything. I'm just explaining why the key decision makers actually created the EU. The statements made for public consumption shouldn't be taken too seriously.


You're vastly underestimating the economic importance of EU integration.


Is that why the EU economic growth rate is so stagnant?


Simplistic reply without substance. The EU economic growth is influenced by much more than just the integration. It can be stagnant not because but despite the integration. It could also be the case that EU integration was an attempt to improve economy but it didn't work out.


So no evidence of economic importance.


Do you think it would harm the US economy if every state instituted its own currency, put up border checkpoints, only allowed its own citizens to work and live in-state, and imposed tariffs on all the other states?


This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government ... The EU was build on the principles of collaboration ... But this only works if it is reciprocal.

This sounds great but doesn't really make any sense. What skeptics are saying is there should be a pan-EU effort to build frontier models, rather than one-off toy models built by each country as a box-ticking exercise.

"We built the EU as a powerful supranational organization, so logically the EU's response to a great power challenge in the realm that may well define the 21st century is gonna be to shatter its efforts into 27 useless pieces, because Trump bad" is just absolutely ridiculous and will not lead to anything good. Be the change you want to see, etc.


Look I agree with all you said. The EU should do this but the EU is also structurally bad at large concerted efforts exactly because it is a collaboration mechanism, not a super state.


Whatever topic comes up on this board, if the EU is mentioned people go a bit cray-cray.

If an individual country trains a language model, it's not ambitious enough. If we try to do one for the whole EU they will say it takes too long (you need to get all countries on board, you see). If the EU announces it by executive decision it's a dictatorship and government driven economic intervention, if a EU company does it they'll say it's not good enough.

You can't win with these people. In my opinion, you shouldn't even try to convince them.


Why would it have to be mediocre?

Both Netherlands and Sweden produce highly competent researchers. Per capita on par with any other location on the planet, including California.

This will be good for Europe as a whole and also the planet.


Producing local researchers isn’t enough. If you want a competitive model you need to bring the best researchers from all over the world. That means lots of investment that hasn’t been common in Europe.


But it's a start


Sure, but there is still a more dense talent pool with SV companies, and training frontier models requires massive amounts of capital. Are Netherlands and Sweden prepared to invest 10s of billions?


My impression is the talent pool for core model development in SV isn't huge and is already grabbed by the usual suspects. Everyone else sloshing in the vague broader AIsphere are application bros whose value in the supply chain is minimal.


Honestly I have a strong suspicion that “the talent pool” will shift towards Europe and China and I believe it’s already happening.

And yes, I do believe Europe will invest in this technology.


You missed the part where they got 13 million EUR , 3 years ago! and dont have a release yet....Definitely doing it at European pace...they will have release two when AGI is around...


>and also the planet.

What a glorious day for Canada and, therefore, the world.


I don’t think it’s good that the USA has so much influence due to their dominance in information technology.

It was only nominally democratic, now it’s a total shit show.


>total shit show

Are there people legitimately brain-rotted such that they believe stuff like this?

Outside of the constant flow of "hey guys, look at the latest dumb thing Trump did" coming from entertainment outfits posing as news, what are we even talking about? Life goes on as normal for the Americans. You are way too online.


Yes, the current administration has been in power for less than two years so obviously the “day to day life” hasn’t changed much for the average American (except everything has gotten more expensive).

The US is no longer looked at as a superpower, it just surrendered to a regional power and will pay $300B USD in tribute.

But for Trump and his cronies life certainly has improved.

But the damage is done and we are witnessing the decline and destruction of the worlds greatest Empire of all time.


Nitpick: it’s 6 years.


The Republican Party looked very different during Trumps first term


The us stopped being looked at as a superpower as a brain rotted Alzheimer’s patients president rose to power on the campaign “don’t let Trump win” and then did little productive except stoke wars and pardon his son and his friends from crimes.


I’m assuming you’re talking about Biden, and no, not really. Still considered a superpower.

Up until the second Trump presidency, most of us outside the USA had basically the same opinion as we had before. Pretty messed up politics , but strong economy and strong military.

The first minor dip was with Trumps first presidency. But shit went downhill fast with his second, unfettered reign when MAGA took total control over the Republican Party.

Now it is 110% clear that the American Dream is dead and buried, except for the well connected wealthy, and your military was state of the art, two decades ago.

The 21st century belongs to China and Europe.


I don't know, I don't really buy that this all went downhill with Trump. It's easy to say that about someone you don't like and fail to overlook all the signs with someone you like.


I didn’t have a problem with Trump during his first term.

It was clear he was unfit to be a president, but he was mostly golfing.


I mean, I have no proof what his schedule is actually like. Media, motivated interests, Political parties (including his own), even you and I will have no problem making up and believing gullibly that something we heard is true when in fact in reality it isn't.

We call this confirmation bias.

I doubt any president would really be able to golf for much of his time. Though you can believe what you'd like. I would love to find evidence for this belief though, where do I Look?


> This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man.

It’s a response to the actually-nationalist practice of the United States. I can understand why it might feel different from California, but things are a bit scary over here right now.


> This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man.

It's a direct response to the MAGA / America First attitude of the American electorate.


Collectively Europe has talent and money to support it. Whole point of sovreignity around it is to have inhouse the talent and capacity to have essential resources even if it can be have for cheap from other nations/alliances.

That is why people lament at idea of being completely dependent on Russian gas, US tech or Chinese manufacturing.


The EU should absolutely be running frontier labs producing frontier models.

The fact they aren’t points to the moribund nature of things in the EU tech space. Both China and America are doing this although with very different approaches.


wdym? it says 13.5 million euros has been allocated to the project - you aint building a frontier LLM with that kind of money, but its enough to give research opportunities and real-world experience to a handful of researchers, and build up local competence.

These people can then fund for-profit companies once they have a promising approach and bring in private investment.

As for nationalism, like it or not, this is a govt sponsored effort, and governments and universities are funded by the public of specific nations


this exactly. its not nationalistic at all to support your local development. this project has different goals than people perceive and their comments are all missing the plank ;)


> This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man.

Guess which country blocked access to a SOTA model based on national security bullshit.


Okay fair point


Hopefully you understand that there's an obvious selection bias you encounter when talking to folks from NL or DE in California. Ofc the people that moved will think there's a good reason for them moving. But people who live here have good reasons for staying here.


> pooling resources

Your argument would suggest the EU developing a European model would be a better direction. A heavy-weight competitor would help advance the field after all.

> getting bureaucracy out of the way and encouraging real investment

I don't think this is really about regulation - it's about network effects. The only way to compete with strong network-effects is to create your own.

> This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech

Nationalism breeds nationalism and it is the fundamental reason European states feel the need to build their own expertise. Can you imagine if your country was subject to the whims of an aspiring dictator?


I don't see it as a nationalist world view around tech in Europe. There is certainly a push for "sovereignty", but that mostly means sovereign from the US. But European countries are actively working together on this.

> Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources.

Yeah, why is Anthropic making their own mediocre models, if they could just pool their resources with OpenAI, that makes no sense.


Users don't need to build wheels. Wheel builders need to first learn to build some mediocre wheels, then they can build better ones.


wdym? it says 13.5 million euros has been allocated to the project - you aint building a frontier LLM with that kind of money, but its enough to give research opportunities and real-world experience to a handful of researchers, and build up local competence.

These people can then fund for-profit companies once they have a promising approach and bring in private investment


wdym? it says 13.5 million euros has been allocated to the project - you aint building a frontier LLM with that kind of money, but its enough to give research opportunities and real-world experience to a handful of researchers, and build up local competence.


if something’s strategically important for safety it’s wise to have competency in it.


Tech sovereignty is a response to American imperialism. It has not gone unnoticed that the White House has summoned the tech bros and weaponised tech.


God the name was very triggering as someone who worked in the valley 2011-2018 time frame…


hahaha


When you're successful and rich (enough, at least), this is a nice whimsical thing to say. When you're suffering in the trenches, this isn't very helpful.


On the contrary, read the piece. He's not saying it from comfort, he's saying it after a heart attack, after his kids grew up, after the form he loved became a young man's game. The farce isn't a punchline delivered from above; it's what's left when the registers that used to hold you don't anymore. And his answer isn't despair, it's "we've got to keep trying… there's a breeze beneath my wings." That's not whimsy. That's the thing the trenches actually teach you, if you survive them.


A triple "It's not this... it's that"...


The robots use it a lot because it's a common construct in their training data, because it's a common construct in text written by humans


i’ve caught myself doing the “it’s this and that — it’s not the other” thing a few times. i dunno if it’s because i’ve seen it so many times because of AI generated comments etc and that’s become a norm in my brain, or if it was actually something i do regularly and ive just never noticed it.

it might be the latter, because i always got the title of this paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.02175 backwards. i used to write it adversarial examples are features, not bugs (which is apparently not correct in english language 0_o)

regardless, ive started editing it out when i notice ive done it now.


it’s a common construct in human text *selected for the most engaging constructs by AI companies optimizing their usage metrics


Obviously any comment that doesn't match the responders exact style must be AI /s.


I can’t be the only one who finds it rude to use AI to contribute to a discussion. I find invasive I had to read what I thought was human.

Using it for translation would be different though.


LLMs write like that because people write like that. That they used the rhetorical device three times in a row in a single paragraph makes me think it’s less likely to be LLM and just how that person writes.


So very rude. If you prefix it with "the LLM says", I'm fine with it. But taking that hot air and pretending it's yours? It's not just rude, it's dishonest.


It’s not just X, it’s Y. It’s not rude, it’s hackneyed use of language.


You’re absolutely right! It’s not just X, it’s Y. /s.


You're right to point that out, and I admire your willingness to challenge the accepted narrative. That writing style not just unique to AI — all humans write like that. That's not annoying — it's refreshing. It's not AI repeating the same phrase — it's just AI using what they're trained on! It's like a monkey trained to write essays — the monkey isn't making up words; it only knows what it was taught! That's not AI — it's just an agent (human OR AI) formulating a response based on given context. That's not exhausting — it's informative!

Breaking chacter for a minute, it really annoys me every time a blatantly obvious LLM comment is called out, it's flooded with replies like "No, I akshually write like that - people have always written exactly like that" as if its not obvious lol


to be fair, em-dashes were cool which is why AI uses it so heavily which is why they are uncool now. round and round we go... and I loved the in-character response.


Triples is best.


Yeah, sadly thought the same. I even agree with the clanker's sentiment.


like a lot of tweets in my timeline these days


I find it rather hopeless that people can "survive the trenches" and tell others" that life is meaningless.

The perspective that affords that life is cruel to some and kind to others, and it's just random and meaningless really doesn't sit well with the people who have to struggle to survive without the chance for joy in life.

If I am just going to suffer endlessly while others enjoy a life of luxury, why not burn the whole thing down? There is a disturbing goal for some people who want equality, and that is universal suffering and misery...


Who are you even talking about? Bob didn't say life is meaningless. If you want the perspective of someone who survived the "trenches" and kept a meaningful perspective on life then I recommend the book "Man's search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl.


> On the contrary, read the piece. He's not saying it from comfort, he's saying it after a heart attack, after his kids grew up, after the form he loved became a young man's game. The farce isn't a punchline delivered from above; it's what's left when the registers that used to hold you don't anymore.

Sounds like a typical mid-life (identity) crisis?

Contrast this with the life perspective of Stephen Colbert, who lost his father and two brother to a plane crash when he was 10:

> “It was a very healthy reciprocal acceptance of suffering,” he said. “Which does not mean being defeated by suffering. Acceptance is not defeat. Acceptance is just awareness.” He smiled in anticipation of the callback: “ ‘You gotta learn to love the bomb,’ ” he said. “Boy, did I have a bomb when I was 10. That was quite an explosion. And I learned to love it. So that's why. Maybe, I don't know. That might be why you don't see me as someone angry and working out my demons onstage. It's that I love the thing that I most wish had not happened.”

> I asked him if he could help me understand that better, and he described a letter from Tolkien in response to a priest who had questioned whether Tolkien's mythos was sufficiently doctrinaire, since it treated death not as a punishment for the sin of the fall but as a gift. “Tolkien says, in a letter back: ‘What punishments of God are not gifts?’ ” Colbert knocked his knuckles on the table. “ ‘What punishments of God are not gifts?’ ” he said again. His eyes were filled with tears. “So it would be ungrateful not to take everything with gratitude. It doesn't mean you want it. I can hold both of those ideas in my head.”

> He was 35, he said, before he could really feel the truth of that. He was walking down the street, and it “stopped me dead. I went, ‘Oh, I'm grateful. Oh, I feel terrible.’ I felt so guilty to be grateful. But I knew it was true.

* https://archive.is/https://www.gq.com/story/stephen-colbert-...

His interview with Anderson Cooper, where they go over this (amongst other things), is worth checking out (see ~12m43s):

> Then you have to be grateful for all of it. You can't pick and choose what you're grateful for. So what do you get from loss? You get awareness of other people's loss, which allows you to connect with that other person. Which allows you to love more deeply and understand what it means to be a human being, if it's true that all humans suffer. […] It's about the fullness of your humanity: what's the point of being here and being human if you can't be the most human you can be? I'm not saying 'best', because you can be a bad person but a most human. […]

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB46h1koicQ


The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.

Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter’s oven?

And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?

When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.

When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.

-- Kahil Gibran


I'm not sure what you are trying to express here. Is it "rich people shouldn't express their worldview" or "the idea that life is inherently meaningless is incorrect"? A younger me ingested this sentiment as a call to action to create the meaning I wanted in the world.


>Is it "rich people shouldn't express their worldview"

If that was the case, how better off we'd be.


I'm not against rich people outright, but I am against the ones who try to pay people as little as possible sharing their views. And especially the views that contradict (working hard) how they got their wealth (not working hard) in the first place.


How would we be better off?


The greediest bastards with undue influece wouldn't have a say.


They’d still act, just not explain…


Still an improvement, any explanation is a lie anyway!


Much worse.


I agree. I'm quite sure even Bob would agree. He never even used the words "farce" or "meaning(less)". He just agreed to "life is a farce" in a context that mostly reflected on his work as a comedian. Also the entire interview reads quite performative. This whole emotions-are-just-molecules, life-is-just-a-game etc perspectives fall flat as soon as the doctor tells the armchair-nihilist he has cancer ... suddenly life feels like something more important than a game and the feelings are no longer just molecules.


I doubt Bill Hicks was that rich. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w


Or Bukowski. Or Lenny Bruce. Or any other number of people "in the trenches".


That's backwards: it is helpful to keep that in mind precisely when you're suffering in the trenches.

Rich and succesful people try to forget that, which is their hubris.


Having been in both, literally and metaphorically, it’s a useful mantra both places

You can also use “this too shall pass” if you want a lighter version


Yeah - but it may be a good way to articulate a bleak, from-the-trenches perspective on the world.


Strictly speaking, meaninglessness is opposed to farce. You can’t have both utter meaninglessness and farce, because meaning is intrinsic to farce.

Comedy presupposes meaning, because comedy hinges on the absurd, but the absurd is a departure from meaning or a deviation from it. Something is absurd when it fails to be meaningful and fails to satisfy the rational in the broader context of rational meaning.

There is no laughter in the utterly meaningless. There cannot be silliness without an overarching context of seriousness.


Did you read the interview? He basically says as much.

>There’s no question that the security that you feel from not being afraid of a health issue or housing is a great comfort and helps you to be more at peace with life. It’s just not as much help as you think it should be.


I’ll disagree with Odenkirk there. Not having to try to decide if you think one of your kids should be taken to the ER at the expense of the other kid for what is probably not an emergency infection, but maybe there’s a chance it could spread and cause real damage so antibiotics now would help, but then the other kid won’t be able to do xyz due to not having a spare $2,000 is a pretty shitty experience.

Security of housing and healthcare is an enormous boost in life. I avoided playing sports when I was a kid because my dad told me a broken arm would set the family back (there were no out of pocket maximums back then).

The government paid if you were dirt poor and had no prospects, or employer or government paid if you were a white collar/union or government employee, but for immigrants invested into their 24/7 small business, they had assets that could be seized but very little cash flow to be able to pay unexpected bills.


Your comment is exactly what successful and rich people say. You can find a lot of joy and acceptance among the poorest of people: the mind is remarkably adaptable, yet it's only those that always strive for more that cannot enjoy life's little moments.

I truly dislike this recent trend of making people feel bad if they have learned to just slow down and be content with life. "It's privilege being able to take a break and smell the roses, I'm too busy for this nonsense" is protestant crab mentality that I find revolting.


Exactly! What a high-profile actor’s life represents to an accountant or a programmer, that accountant’s or programmer’s life similarly represents to a factory worker, and so on.

I've met "too busy for this" people in every line of work, regardless of their pay band. When you get to know people, you will see that pretty much everyone has their own trenches, and slowing down is a matter of priorities, not privilege.


I think you misinterpreted. The comment said "When you're suffering...", not "When you're poor..."


"Desire is the root of all suffering" — Buddha

You'll have a hard time finding more suffering than in Wall Street. Meanwhile I haven't found more content, relaxed people than when I visited my distant family in sub-Saharan Africa, taking life as it comes. My point still stands.


You know what, no you wont have hard time finding more suffering then in Wall Street. I am not saying they are all happy, but the hell non-Wall Street people suffer as often and a lot.

Only rich people are unhappy and suffering is such a ridiculous point, frankly.

Including in Africa for that matter. In fact, you will find plenty of people there that go to extremes to avoid or minimize suffering ... including making other sub-africans super suffering in the process. That happy take life as it comes sub-Saharan Africa includes Sudan and Congo full of people who are not happy and very active in trying to change thing around them (not necessarily in the positive sense).


> Meanwhile I haven't found more content, relaxed people than when I visited my distant family in sub-Saharan Africa, taking life as it comes. My point still stands.

You seem to be arguing against the point "only happy people can be rich". This isn't what the GP comment said. It said only rich people come out with things like "life is a farce". Which I think is true. Are any of your sub saharan african relatives giving interviews to press pontificating on such things? I assume no.


> Are any of your sub saharan african relatives giving interviews to press pontificating on such things? I assume no.

No, but the first thing they say to a Westerner like me is "what are you fretting about? You white people are always stressed and busy. Just take a breath. The world isn't going anywhere."

It takes a lot of energy and effort to be rich and to chase money; these are not the people that say "life is a farce".

Your comment is borne from the idea that money does create happiness, so only rich people can enjoy life and have a laugh about it. This is not a universal maxim, just a cultural artefact of the protestant ethos that finds in maximum expression in the American capitalist society. In the rest of the world, it's the complete opposite.


> You can find a lot of joy and acceptance among the poorest of people: the mind is remarkably adaptable, yet it's only those that always strive for more that cannot enjoy life's little moments.

See perhaps Viktor Frankl on this:

> Man's Search for Meaning (German: ... trotzdem Ja zum Leben sagen. Ein Psychologe erlebt das Konzentrationslager, lit. '... Say Yes to Life nonetheless: A Psychologist Experiences the Concentration Camp') is a 1946 book by Viktor Frankl chronicling his experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps during World War II, and describing his psychotherapeutic method, which involved identifying a purpose to each person's life through one of three ways: the completion of tasks, caring for another person, or finding meaning by facing suffering with dignity.

> Frankl observed that among the fellow inmates in the concentration camp, those who survived were able to connect with a purpose in life to feel positive about and who then immersed themselves in imagining that purpose in their own way, such as conversing with an (imagined) loved one. According to Frankl, the way a prisoner imagined the future affected their longevity.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl


if you are too busy to think consequently everything you are doing is without knowing any justification or explanation

"too busy" is arguing for ignorance, which is defensible but not agreed on


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